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  1. #1
    Medlem anubisgrau's Avatar
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    ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    Hi guys,

    Sorry for writing in English - I am a foreigner here and I don't speak Norwegian. I doubt you speak my native language (Serbian) so I thought about trying in English.

    I am on a quest to find a preamp to match my ATC 20 ASL Pro speakers - it is a pro version of ATC 20A.

    So far a number of OK preamps didn't do well in my system - such as Krell KAV250p, Cary SLP-98L (on sale, btw).

    Last week I borrowed EC4.7 Mk2 to try in my system (front end is Thule CD150B, Electrocompaniet ECD-1 and some cheap DVD Pioneer as transport - cables are Linn Silver and VdH Second, both balanced).

    EC 4.7Mk2 had a beautiful synergy with ATCs in 0 dB gain position of gain adjuster on the back. The sound was very tuneful, musical, uplifting and flowing. It was relatively detailed - not too much, but OK - and there was nothing that distructed a pleasent listening.

    However I found it pretty much coloured, and that was obvious especially in a mid-range on many acoustic instruments. Also, what annoyed me even more is that there was a kind of treble roll-off that made a whole impression that there is not much extension in the highs.

    This is the only EC preamp I have ever heard and I am now really curious what kind of sound I would get if I would go for older models such as EC 4.5 or 4.6. From some EC fans I heard that the best sounding is 4.5 and that the later ones were going back with sound quality. I know early versions of 4.7 also didn't score well. Hows about 4.6?

    As I am writing this, I am listening to Pass Labs X2.5 in my system. It sounds a class (or 2 ) above EC4.7 in terms of accuracy, transparency, detail and control - no comparison. But it somehow lacks that emotional bond that EC had in my system.

    I would love to hear your thoughts about older EC preamps as well as any other products there on the market which combine succesfully EC emotional qualities together with more realistic sound qualities.

    A perfect foto-robot is X2.5 accuracy with a hint of EC4.7 warmth.

    The preamp needs to be fully balanced (I don't use SE connections anymore), it should have a low impedance (under 100 ohm or so) and relatively small gain, or a possibility to reduce it via switch or pot. Perfectly 0-6dB gain.

    Also, I am wondering about upgrading EC preamp for better performance? Ss it common that people succesfully upgrade EC preamps? If this is the case that 4.7 can be upgraded (power supply / tram doesn't look impressive to me) to a higher level, that could be the solution too, because I also adore EC styling (Pass Labs looks so dehumanized that it would be hard for me to live with it).

    I hope this was not too confusing - I am looking forward to hear your response and your experience.

    Best wishes from Belgrade Serbia

    Gordan

  2. #2
    Hifi Freak tweakMan's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    welcome to this forum.

    Well, all things considering. Abrahamsen audio and Electrocompaniet both should be able to modify any of their own products should the need arise.

    I remember seeing a post before by you, you had kimber xlr pbj's then, right? I would think they were a bit warmer but ofcourse a bit less transparent than your current xlr's

    Well ... seeing as you like the hint of warmth in your preamp and you run active speakers...

    The EC4.5 will sort of be like putting back your kimbers...
    The sound will be less transparent, but very full without being over ripe.

    Its true that the 4.5 probably is the best pre out of EC yet.
    If you wanna modify, start with one of these...
    Also... EC preamps are very sensitive to the ac cord used...

    What kind of music do you listen to then Gordan?

    Hmmm perhaps NAT audio of your native country could do
    some modifying of an EC, I would think that they are more than able to do that.

    ..

  3. #3
    Medlem anubisgrau's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    hi, and thanks for the warm welcome and hospitality.

    could be that you have seen my posts at audio asylum or at some of the UK's forums.

    yes i still have kimber PBJs. i am not the biggest fan of them as they don't sound too good with ATCs, but very often I like putting them back in my system when I am testing a new component. I enjoy checking how top end products sound with a simple ICs or plain power cords. actually that is what i like about ATCs speakers, they are really not that sensitive about the cables. the component they are the most sensible about is preamp and in my system every preamp sounds entirely different while sometimes there is not that much difference between 50E DVD player and 1000E CD player.

    it is hard to comment on EC preamps sound as my experience is just limited to a few days with 4.7. i think it was one of the later versions - i borrowed it from a local EC dealer.

    after my last experience with pass labs X2.5 i am not sure even if 4.7 has enough transparency, but let's say that is not so important as much as the extension in the treble. to makes things worse, my version of ATC 20A is a studio (pro) one and they start to roll of early, -2dB @12khz going towards -6@20khz. so they would really benefit from a more open preamp in the upper frequencies which is obvious with pass X2.5 that plays so good in the highs that it is hard to believe.

    i am not sure if it would be feasible to send any EC from where i live to norway for mods. i think it will cost just as much as choosing a ready made better product so if i decide to mod it, i will do it locally.

    importance of power cord usually speaks of imperfections in power supply area (at least some people claim so) and i am not too happy how 4.7 trafo looks like. it smells to me that something serious can be done there. i've heard that electrocompaniet has a few tweaked 4.7s made for some VIPs and friends of the company where mere 1000 euro were spent just for the new parts.

    maybe that is the way to go. some local DIY gurus here would be able to do it for sure, they did it with much bigger beasts.

  4. #4
    Medlem anubisgrau's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    my music taste is very diverse.

    lots of 20 century contemporary music such as gorecki, arvo part, schnittke.

    aslo some wagner, rich. strauss, berlioz, stravinski etc.

    then shitloads of alternative and acoustic music - sufjan stevens, radiohead, bjork, vushti banyan, go between, REM etc

    than lots of US roots and african world music - willie nelson, johnny cash, ry cooder, ali farka ture, salif keita etc

    and lots of jazz of all kinds - from classics (miles, coltrane, mingus) via ECM to bugge wesseltoft and similar.

    and some prince in between

    therefore i have ATCs - great allrounders.

  5. #5
    Hifi Freak tweakMan's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    OK! Wesseltoft is from norway you know
    Also the vdh the second is not what you could call very ekstended in the high freq.

    I would actually look at these: http://www.the-missing-link.net/index.htm

    You know... i'm not so sure you should go for an EC after all...

    I'd rather recomend looking at EAR 864 Preamplifier by Ear-Yoshino...
    It would also sort of be like an EC 4.5 with much better transparancy...
    It also like kimbers... should you want to try that.

    Its ofcourse got xlr in and out..
    http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productde...?page=11&id=24
    ..

  6. #6
    Medlem anubisgrau's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    Hm, I found EAR pretty lean sounding. Their smaller amp 834L didn't score well in my system, I tried that. I was surprised that they sounded completely SS-like in my system. Pass Labs is a warmer sounding device than EAR (at least with me).

    Also not sure about valves. I am a lazy listener, once I set the system right, I'm gonna stick to it for next 10 years. That's how I did it last time.

    I know Buge is Norwegian. Do you know that Prins Thomas is a friend of mine? He just played 2 weeks ago at my party here.

  7. #7
    Hifi Freak tweakMan's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    I dont know many dj's ...
    okay... to cold is your impression.
    What kind of money is your reach then?
    A warm and transparent solidstate pre with xlr...

    I'm thinking the likes of MBL right of the bat here.
    Accuphase springs to mind also.
    I can see why you want to look at EC 4.5...

    Usually the pricetag on a transparent pre with a warm sound is pretty hefty... its a difficult feat for any firm to get right.

    Also, the 4.7 mk I is a sweeter sounding unit than the mk II , if my memory serves me...
    ..

  8. #8
    Medlem anubisgrau's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    Money - of course, as little as possible

    I am joking. I have my previous preamp to sell, its Cary 98L. One should get around 1,500E for it, at least that was a usual price for a good s/h unit.

    For 2,000E I can buy X2.5 for example.

    Of course, used one. I have no money for new esoteria.

  9. #9
    Hifi Freak tweakMan's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    A Ear 834L could be made to sound both warm and transparent... Mazda tubes...
    So you are lazy, arent we all...

    I still think a tube pre is a good choice here...

    Nat audio , that would be a little north of you I think could probably give advice on tubeselection maybe even a mod, so it would sound as you want.

    Because, a warm transparent solidstate... that is most likely a very expensive unit.

    The EC 4.5 is ofcource a good choice.
    But its not a very transparent unit. That must be said.
    But i'm sure its very easy to modify... better pot (volume)
    a better diode bridge , caps, that sort of thing.


    Actually, I'm thinking out loud here...
    The Ear 834L is not supposed to sound cold...
    And once you turn it on you can leave it on for
    5 years befor the tubes bug out on you.

    Did you use the VDH seconds on this one?
    ..

  10. #10
    Hifi Freak tweakMan's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    Ear is by the way used by many atc owners with active speakers. True, they wind up changing the tubes for more
    funky versions, but nevertheless, this seemes to be a nice
    combo...can you find the right tube that is...

    The Sugden Masterclass pre (wich does also come with xlr in/out as option)
    Is probably a good bet for the sound in a solidstate also...

    ..

  11. #11
    Æresmedlem rama's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    honestly, i don't think the ec preamps are going to do it for you if you didn't like the cary slp98. ec and cary have much of the same "signature", that is a rather soft, atmospheric and liquid sound, with not quite the grip and drive that some of us may crave for.
    however, the slp98 is far superior to the ec 4.5/4.6 in every aspect, imo.
    good luck!
    Hornalliansen

  12. #12
    Medlem anubisgrau's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    yes but i liked 4.7 (with gain adjuster). i 0dB position it sounded very mellow, musical and with a good flow.
    it didn't have a particularly good resolution and treble extension - it was just a bit too dark.

    cary 98 has too high impedance (450ohm) and too much gain (20dB) for ATC active speakers. they need low impedance (50-100ohm) and low gain from the preamp.

  13. #13
    Hifi Freak tweakMan's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    yes but i liked 4.7 (with gain adjuster). i 0dB position it sounded very mellow, musical and with a good flow.
    it didn't have a particularly good resolution and treble extension - it was just a bit too dark.

    cary 98 has too high impedance (450ohm) and too much gain (20dB) for ATC active speakers. they need low impedance (50-100ohm) and low gain from the preamp.



    The VDH has a very high resistance on the ground return wire/connection ... this can have some very detrimental effects for some preamps... some are actually very sensitive for this.. I urge you to also test a preamp with the Kimber, not plagued by this sometimes occuring phenomena...
    This is a good thing to know about whilest testing


    And some powersupply notes on the EC design...

    The Electrocompaniet has what is known as a double diode bridge rectifier.. this means that the transformer is very well isolated from the powergrid...

    What this also means is that it is rather sensitive to the quality of the grounding in the electrical system in your house.

    This then also applies to the grounding from the source...
    When connecting the EC ..4.7 to the grid it is very important to start it in a very precise sequence for optimum result... I belive it should be started after the cd player, before the poweramp... or eh speaker...

    Also... you should not connect the EC pre to the same circuit breaker as your speakers... if possible...

    Experimenting with lifting the ground on the ac cable can also give some interesting results...

    The EC design has sort of three setting...

    Hum - something is wroong....
    An alsomst superbly low hum - the normal ec way.

    And then it is possible to shunt ALL noise away... i mean you open i totally up... but NOTHING is comming out of your speakers, if you are not playing that is...

    The standard AC cord that is supplied with the EC will exhibit the extremely low hum by the way... you will not hear it...

    But when you find the right cord, you will hear that it is gone...


    I want you to understand that the EC's are some very special designs... very few other makes have this "floating" transformer design...

    Sam Tellig one interviewed Per Abrahamsen (The founder of EC) on the phone where Per was given the question as to why his powersupply was so special...

    The reply is a classic...

    - You listen to your powersupply, not your transistors...
    - A quick reacting and low impedance transformer and surroundig system integration will give the best possible working condition for the amp...

    A firm that is tottaly in accordance with this principle is the firm Vitus audio from denmark...
    The Mccormack DNA 500 has a fantastic power transformer
    Many others also...

    If you go EC... why not mail EC and ask for advice as how to best utilise the component... I'm sure they will give an answer more precicely than i've just hinted at here...

    Maybe they will tell you about something i got wrong also...

    Once properly set up... the 4.7 is a masterpiece...
    I do urge you to look at the mk I rather than the mk II

    Because of the mk II's slighty more anemic sound...

    In my experience the darknes you talk about is actually the feint grounding noise that can be a bitch to track down.

    A good song to test for this is:

    A-HA : Crying in the rain...
    Play it loud...

    Once the EC is happy... this will make you hairs stand on end. Its quite amazing...

    The guitars can sound a bit shrill when the lady doesn like the ac... but you'll know right away when she is happy.

    The piano cords also will seem to "come alive" ...

    And the its the actual sound of the rain... its spooky real!
    ..

  14. #14
    Hifi-entusiast e-h's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    Hmm... Looks like I've got plenty of opertunities for costly upgrades (power cord, upgrade to mk X, interconnects, etc).

    I have sent some requests to both the new and old EC lately without any responses at all. So any info might not be easy to get... Good luck though! And be sure to keep us informed ;-)

  15. #15
    Hifi Freak tweakMan's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    I think the best way is to phone, then send an e-mail.
    Ofcourse it would depend on what you asked about e-h...
    It was?
    ..

  16. #16
    Hifi-entusiast e-h's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    I guess I don't know much about EC but have noticed that the volume control is rather limited below 9 o'clock. Especially so when the equipment is cold. It goes from no sound to more than I feel comfortable with late at night on behalf of my neighbors. It becomes slightly better when warmed up.
    Also it started up once with no sound coming from the right channel. While adjusting the volume it worked but also made static. After letting it warm up for a couple of hours it was fine again.

    My question was whether this is nothing to worry about or that I should bring it to a service station. I have a second hand 4.7 with dimmer and gain adjuster switch.
    I'm also looking for a description of how the sound will change if I upgrade my EC units.

    Thanks for the already good info in this thread!

    -Eivinn


    edit:: typos.

  17. #17
    Æresmedlem Zomby_Woof's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    I've owned the 4.5. Apart from the number of inputs, the 4.6 is identical as far as I know. There is also a model called 4 1/2, with a separate volume control for each channel (instead of the usual balance). I believe this was only made in a very small number.

    The preamp was a good product for its reasonable price. I don't have much in the way of personal experience with any of the other models, but judging by the press the 4.7 is far better.

    The 4.5 is rather 'pear-shaped', almost 'plump', though not quite 'fat', and certainly not 'obese'. The newer ones are reported to be more transparent and neutral.

    I fear the 4.5 would be a disappointment in the company of your otherwise rather expensive gear.

    These days I use a balanced passive controller based on step attenuators, which I find to be a massive improvement over the 4.5.
    At the end of time, after human civilization; all that will remain will be cockroaches and Teles...and the Teles will be in tune" Greg Koch

  18. #18
    Hifi Freak tweakMan's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    I guess I don't know much about EC but have noticed that the volume control is rather limited below 9 o'clock. Especially so when the equipment is cold. It goes from no sound to more than I feel comfortable with late at night on behalf of my neighbors. It becomes slightly better when warmed up.
    Also it started up once with no sound coming from the right channel. While adjusting the volume it worked but also made static. After letting it warm up for a couple of hours it was fine again.

    My question was whether this is nothing to worry about or that I should bring it to a service station. I have a second hand 4.7 with dimmer and gain adjuster switch.
    I'm also looking for a description of how the sound will change if I upgrade my EC units.

    Thanks for the already good info in this thread!

    -Eivinn


    edit:: typos.
    Lets first discuss what is being done when the upgrade happends...

    This is a sort of strange story behind... It apparently all started with the advent of the AW400 monoblocks...
    We could go further back also, why dont we...

    EC has made, what I've never heard, but am very inclined to call the best solidstate amplifyer yet made...

    The Electrocompaniet Enigma... essentially a beast with no less than 8 transformers in one quite cool loking chassis.

    From what i've been able to gather, this was a full out assault at the state of the art. Only 3 of this gentle giant was made some late 90's. The specs a shrouded in mystery but one can assume that this Enigma was the epitomy of the EC design around the balanced basic design of the famed 180 mono's

    It had to that extent succeded the designteam to make the to amplifier halves absolutely equal in every regard as to the bridge that they then make up.

    Bridging amplifyers is very difficult, to make balanced circrutry more so, because the two halves most likely never achive totally commonmode rejection on the part of them not really being mirror images...

    The EC design makes this much more easy...
    So back to the AW 400. Ofcourse , after the Enigma Per discovered that it was possible to make the powersupply reject the ripple normally occuring in the bassrange by effectively canceling it out... hence the FANTASTIC bassprowes of the NEMO. This to a lesser degree mirrored in the AW400, also named NADA (this unit is based on the AW120 DMB by the way.)

    Developement continued, and it was discovered that especially the rectifiers were causing a rather strange sonic artifact... many of the rectifiers were in fact slower than their specs should suggest them to be...

    A switching noise...

    So they searched for a replacement, wich was found.
    A rectifyer so fast, with a perfect curve without much of the residual noise in the caps as an added effect.

    This new AW400 was so superbly in the powersupply that one of the early prototypes was stolen... this is not really well known although told about in a norwegian magazine..

    Aparently the amp was on loan to someone... never to be returned..

    It all sound rather incredudible! Silly....
    Anyway, this new rectifiers give a much more transparent and more focuse sound to the amps. The AW400 has an amazing bassclarity this then continue up the midband and up into the lower treble... the new EC sound is then this. A more level sound from bottom all the way up.

    Dare we say a cooler sounding j-fet sound. It is bipolar ofcouse, that powers these amps.

    The old warmth and slightly euphonic midband is now replaced by a very potent an clear sound with a full measure of power right trough the critical 1500-3500hz range, where the sound is very incisive!

    Most all amps has diminished transient clarity here. The old EC had a slightly more reticent "prescence" sound to.

    The new one has a total power all the way up. not backing off slightly...(the sund of the 180aw in some ways...)

    Hence, the new amps are much more adept with complex music than the old ones is.

    The new EC is a real champ when it comes to the imaging
    and sounstage capacity. It is still magic with the human voice. And in the bass , oh the sternumcrunching bass!!!

    I was talking about the poweramps...
    This is also quite accurate on the behalf of the pre amplifiers also..


    This has been written out of memory, drawing on some 20 articles of EC through the years... som errors may be here...

    tweakMan.
    ..

  19. #19
    Medlem anubisgrau's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    a few comments from the top towards the end

    cary 98 and EC4.7 sounds very different. nothing similar there. EC has a bigger soundstage, more detail, more flow, more liquidity, more coherence. last but not least, it sounds more tube like than cary - i would say that it is audibly more rolled off in the highs than cary. however, cary has better timbre more naturalism with acoustic instruments.

    how can one differ EC4.7 Mk1 from Mk2? is that a gain switch on the back?

    if yes than what is the gain of the unit with no gain switcher? i have to know this because on test in my system, Mk2 played audibly worse in 9dB gain position.

    someone mentioned MkX. what's that?

    regarding vdh cables etc. about vdh second i can only tell that it is not a rolled off cable, it is just a illusion of excellent space recreation in the upper mids and treble so there is less treble in the face of the listener, but when you take a better attention, it is all there, just laid in the space. excellent cable.

    second, i always start my test of a new component in the hardest enviroment for a unit. this means - the cheapes power cords (a simple on that comes with a computer for example) and some simple ICs such as Kimber PBJ for example. so most of the conclusions i write about are based on that - of course that EC4.7 benefited tremendously from a good power cord (transparent audio), but that is what i call fine tuning. if a component can't sound acceptable and decent within a basic setup, i will not try to make it outstanding with 1,000E powercords and 1,000E/m cables.

    strangely i've had an impression that EC4.7 Mk2 that was with me produced a slight hum. it was certainly audible when i would put my ear against tweeters. it doesn't exist with my current valve pre (cary 98

    next: i am currently (for a 5th day in a row) having pass labs X2.5. i am really afraid that EC4.7 sounds so coloured next to it that it is better not to try to compare them. but on the other hand, EC4.7 has such a magnetic charm about its midrange and the way it puts music in the room, that i am still not convinced i would go for X2.5. so my writing is actually more like a provocation for EC 4.7 users outhere to see if anyone else also witnessed rather serious lack of transparency in the highs that made so many music sounded slightly veiled, almost like when you are looking at a renaissance painting where everything is just beautiful, colours perfect, but softly out of focus (i think it was called sfumato). i wish if there would be a EC4.7 user who would say - yes sir, i loooooveeee this little beast's sound so much that i took a special effort to reduce its shortcomings.

    because, you can trust me when i say that it is very difficult to find another product on the market that communicates a very essence of music - emotion - in such a brilliant manner as 4.7. in this aspect, it kicks ass over otherwise great pass X2.5 that i would take immediatelly if it would have a hint of EC sweetness and seductivity.


  20. #20
    Æresmedlem Zomby_Woof's Avatar
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    Re: ELECTROCOMPANIET preamps - differences?

    Electrocompaniet was sold to a company called West Control a frew years back. After a bit of waiting they have finally begun introducing new products. Quite recently their new 4.8 pre recieved an almost gushing review in a norwegian magazine. I can't find it on their website yet, but hopefully it will be there soon.

    http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products_pre-amp.html


    Per Abrahamsen and his sons now run this company:


    http://www.ecsholding.com/abrahamsen/

    Their preamp might be of interrest.

    At the end of time, after human civilization; all that will remain will be cockroaches and Teles...and the Teles will be in tune" Greg Koch

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