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  1. #1
    Hifi Freak WayAhead's Avatar
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    Well, Satin,Sony. Micro Seiki, Sansui, beste pickup noensinne? Kjøpte den anyway, ...

    Ifm litt zooming ang pickuper dukket denne saken opp. I følge skribenten i innlegget nederst skal det være noe av det ypperste som noensinne er laget - opprinnelig fra 1964. Les innlegget.

    Satinversjonen som heter Satin M8-45E = rebadged til Sony VC-8E og det er denne siste jeg har kjøpt..
    Satin M8-45E finnes nå på eBay for 8-11 kkr: Sonyen derimot fikk jeg for prisen av 66% av originalstiften til ADC ZLM pickupen. Fant da ut at - basert på beskrivelsen nedenfor - id give it a try.

    Imidlertid er jeg her å nå villig til å vedde på at Sonyen - uansett hvilken platespiller man måtte hekte den på - ikke spiller i nærheten av hva "Low End" lineærspilleren Sansui P-L51 leverer. Sånn er D bare.

    Satin/Sonyen er en MC pickup med MM outputkapasitet og har utskiftbar stift.

    Well,,,, når den enn måtte ankomme.. her er litt info...

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    Sony VC-8E
    1 9 6 6 1 9 7 1
    Sony's first cartridge and a moving coil design, no less.

    Well... not really - the VC-8E represents the first but only time Sony ever (partly) rebadged something from somebody else : the VC-8E originated from Satin !
    (see the JP link below for the details)

    Made to complement Sony's PUA-237 or PUA-286 tonearms, the VC-8E had three major features : very high compliance, very high 4mV output and stylus replacement.
    Stylus replacement is performed with no tools whatsoever, just like with an MM cartridge - impressive, isn't it ?

    Sony later on launched a sister company, Sound Tec, to develop its own cartridges until phono cartridges faded into oblivion (for Sony) circa 1985, after having launched a series of fairly successful mid-end MC cartridges with... guess what... user-replaceable stylus

    A thorough comparison of contemporary Satin and Sony cartridges here.

    Satin på eBay.
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    Spesifikasjoner for Satin/Sony pickupen:
    SATIN M8-45E Moving Coil Phono Cartridge

    ■Output : 1(4) mV
    ■Tracking Force : 0.3~2.5g
    ■Frequency Response : 5-30,000Hz
    ■Channel Separation : 35dB
    ■Dynamic Compliance : 50×10-6cm/dyne
    ■Stylus : 0.8×0.2mil
    ■Weight 13.5g
    ■Stylus M8-NE

    Gudd readin´

    Welcome to the Wonderful Back to the Future Cartridges!- Vinyl Engine
    Welcome to the Wonderful Back to the Future Cartridges!

    Post by Paladin » 31 Dec 2014 01:43

    Modern cartridges do their best in someone else’s place: sensible principles are proven in my home. Peeps go to great pains to force cartridges to work. I say, let it go and try an old cartridge that does their magic naturally.

    “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.”
    -Richard P. Feynman

    How do we know what parts to put on turntables? Oh, they can look good and be popular. We often assume good looks mean unrivaled performance. How many know that is false?

    In the hey-day of “vinyls,” the design and implementation of cartridges makes all the difference in our record micro-worlds. I’m talking the entire design of the cartridge- not just the stuff we see or chat over. We all know what is best but do we know what is important? Hopefully, this post finds the people that really are dedicated and seeking just a little bit more.

    My systems are provocative sounding: tube-like wholesomeness and some high delicate high-res too! The midrange is pure and the stereo separation zings off my walls. It’s the combination of using naturally musical cartridges with post-Quadraphonic solid-state equipment. But I avoid Quad equipment. It was a bad direction. It was a failure. Their cartridges failed for unobvious reasons but the equipment that needed to be tightened-up gave us quite a leap for audio reproduction.

    It is not just resolution but how it is implemented. I don’t listen what for ‘what’s wrong.’ Instead, I kick back and enjoy. Simplicity and common sense is worth the work. And it can be cheap yet excellent. Band-Aids are patches to problems to cheap, modern, cartridges but their basic underlying problems remain. In the world of perfect, it is obvious that everything must be harmonious; tuned perfectly. That is what good, old-world, cartridges do best.

    For those in a hurry, swing down to the middle to get the grandfather cartridges I recommend. We can get them cheaply because they are unpopular. I won’t get into the ‘why they work,’ but I may touch on a few highlights.

    Quite common are the popular cartridges. In real life, they are really just “enhanced-mono” or “pseudo-stereo.” We know which ones they are by their design. They have limited separation, excessive crosstalk, loading problems, high groove noise, highest groove wear, and highest stylus wear. Often, they are modern-cheap and when you get them you don’t realize that to get them working to maybe minimum standards that they are going to cost you a stack of money. And peeps often wrongly figure out their problems.

    OTOH, the best, the unpopular, are ignored. Some are the best. I call them sleeper cartridges.

    What are popular cartridges? They went on everyman’s turntable. A famous cartridge maker bragged that they made 220,000 cartridges a month. That’s a big number. That is popular! If they are common then you have a popular cartridge. If there are multiple clones but just model number changes then you have a popular cartridge. When you bought a turntable in the ‘70s, if you took advantage of the ‘popular brand-name “1¢” or “free” cartridge sale,’ then you have a popular cartridge. If forums stir up your cartridge then you have a popular cartridge. If you can’t get a straight answer to your problems then you have a popular cartridge. If they cost a lot to run then you have a popular cartridge. Personally, I don’t like doubt and headaches. It’s counterproductive.

    Do 1¢/free cartridges have design and manufacturing compromises? Do their high-priced kin have the same compromises? Your answer depends on your knowledge and experience. They are not what you want if you want good music.

    There are cartridges we do not talk about. We simply shun them. What are these unpopular cartridges? Many of the few originally cost more. They didn’t popup in the Sunday ads. They have clever or extraordinary designs crucial to good sound. They can have extra quality in their assemblies. They were not on demo turntables. They were not in cheap storage boxes that were stored in the back room. They are no nonsense and special so they were on display; the lit front display case. Their nice boxes were handled gingerly because they were special.

    Who was going to buy a $200+ cartridge when you get a popular one thrown in for a penny or free? If you bought an unpopular one then your friends would consider you daft or a snob. Either way, you lose popularity points. The unpopular cartridges are fewer and pricey. Definitely not for everyman. They are for the equally few deserving turntables that have the rights- the right parts. They make real turntables show us ‘the next level.’ Finally, in another category, some were rebrands of the famous. Those can be the real treasures.

    It’s fun to go with the “in” crowd. To get serious about audio, it is personal and you have to think for yourself. To do that, you need to know what you are doing. Others use a lot of makeup to look pretty but pure beauty is natural- and you know it when you see it. A cleverly designed cartridge that does not taunt physics is a beautiful thing.

    The ones I recommend are unpopular. Forgotten, they are cheap and have great support. How did I find them?

    I work in reverse. At eBay, I look for buried low-cost styluses. Then I backtrack to find out what they fit. If I find a cartridge match then I look for it and its variations. Then I start digging. I research their patents and see what makes them tick. The ones with sound designs are on my personal scorecard. Then I wait. When an odd-duck cartridge wanders through eBay at a low price and I’m ready. I rarely get a counterbid and if there is one then it is small because they didn’t do their homework.

    These cartridges are not for tweakers. Installed, they work. This is for the beginner or the guy that wants to have good fun at low cost. Properly designed cartridges do their best to reproduce accurate stereo sound and add as little to the chorus as possible.


    Can MM/MI cartridges have “air?” The right ones do. It is inherent in their designs. They can stand level with LOMC cartridges. Their prices are right and they won’t play second-fiddle.

     BANG & OLUFSEN (B&O) SP1 &SP2; aka DYNACO STEREODYNE II and PERPETUUM EBNER PE9000 (PE-9000.) By using a push-pull configuration, these moving-iron cartridges give half the distortion. Look up isobaric speakers for the reasons why they are both are good for you. Today you can pay up to $2800 for their patented MMC/SMMC cartridges. All use the Moving Micro-Cross principle. The SP1 & SP are unsealed so replacing their styluses is a breeze. Many get fooled by their higher impedance but that is appearance only. They forget that this is a push-pull design. They are electrically/mechanically balanced. In their day and in their class, they were bad-ass- they had the flattest response. Yes, in MM/MI designs, you can get “air” (broadband separation, natural high octave, and minimum crosstalk.) I could add the newer SP12 but they were rediscovered so they got scooped up. Pricewise the SP12 and their close kin are losers but the older SP1 and SP2 are available. I got my derelicts for under $50. Styluses run around $20.

    They are straight up cartridges- not sloppy sounding. They will make you want to revisit your older records and you’ll gain more respect for the sounds you get.

     Who is going to argue if folks want to pay $1100 for $60 cartridges? Sony XL-MC1, MC2, & MC3 are another isobaric/push-pull design. Again, they have half the distortion. In this case, the high-compliance LOMC cartridges use replaceable styluses. New at $60, they were sneered at- they didn’t sell. I almost think Sony was trying to tell us LOMC cartridges don’t have to be expensive. Sony quickly dropped them when their CD format rocks and digital took off. But with a little marketing by adding a shroud to hide the body, adding that they are Mark Levinson designed, and rumors that they were made by Clearaudio from Germany, made them beyond criticism. It looks like the XL-MC series became the legendary $1100 Madrigal Carnegie-One cartridges. Adjusted for inflation, the Carnegie-One cartridges would be $2200 today. They are audiophile’s wet dreams. Well, the shroud that prevented stylus replacement was heavier, more mass where it counts, so they give more bass. But I could do the same to the Sony cartridge by adding a penny to the top. EBay is your friend. Only $30 each so I got a couple and the styluses were $15 each.

    They have the Shure fat bass sound with the addition of an energetic and smooth midrange overlays plus a natural, realistic, top end. It’s good but the next one is far better.

     It is worth getting a really good turntable for these. Because of weight, they are tough to mount but the dedicated can handle it. The Sony VC-8E and VC-7P high-compliance LOMC cartridges have special coils (what’s that?) to give higher output. But they still have the performance of LOMC cartridges. Both versions are high-compliance, 30 to 50-CU, and their tracking weight is 0.3 to 2.5g. The VC-8E with the help of a miniature SUT in the cartridge body has an output of 4-mV. The 7P lacks the primitive SUT but still has a healthy output of 1-mV. I prefer the 7P’s adaptability and sound. Their beryllium-bridges show amazing workmanship. And so do the entire cartridges. 1-kHz stereo separation is excellent at- 36-dB. That is more than twice the separation of a famous modern audiophile MM cartridge. The Sony’s have long legs. At 10-kHz they maintains an astonishing separation of 30dB- all done within the bounds of physics. Others fall way behind. The widely-spaced beryllium-bridge gives us little crosstalk.

    To get higher output, they use a patented square coil design for 27% closer packing. That is a 27% reduction in size and more much more control over cantilever overshooting. They take replaceable styluses that are mounted on a rigid framework I call a “sled.” And if you look closely then you’ll see a short cantilever. We know that advantage. It would be astonishing technology today but these were designed half a century ago in 1964! Adjusted for inflation, the cartridges were $2157 and the styluses were $541 each. These appear to be (Sony isn’t saying) rebranded versions of the coveted, legendary, and rare Satin M8-45E. The Sony cartridges cost me $30 and the styluses are $6. Easy pickings at eBay.

    They are splashy and spectacular sounding. Pure vinyl sound is pulled-out here. They have pure performance and their separation is consistent: it saturates and oozes off walls. If you want “air” then these are serious beasts to look for.

     An induced magnet design without the ADC problem and under $10 each at eBay. In the western world, the Micro-Seiki VF-3100 cartridges are pretty much unknown making them rare. It is easier to find there rebranded versions like the SANSUI SC-32, SC-50, and SC-80. They use the induced magnet design. And you’ll find a lot of styluses are still available at low cost.

    ADC and the Micro Seiki/Sansui have similar sounds to LOMC cartridge but have higher output. But engineering gives a bit less stereo separation but much better than a modern ‘audiophile-tuned’ cartridge. They are still much better than a modern low-cost audiophile cartridge. The main advantage to the Sansui is you can still get NOS styluses for low cost.

     SHURE M3D; the first stereo cartridge. The M3D/M7D/RADIO SHACK RS100 are really sloths. But their syrupy sound is so smooth. Physical limits means no high octave and worst groove/stylus wear. And Shure’s weakness has always been the lack of stereo separation. In separation, their later reboots were rougher sounding. And despite their marketing of ‘light tracking is best,’ they never addressed the excessive groove/stylus wear. Light-tracking is more to induce the thin cantilever rough acting synthesized/artificial highs boost. The original M-series quit at 12-kHz. But when rare third-generation MM technology is easily and cheaply grafted on them then they become competitive with the legendary, and pricey, SP- except in separation. No broadband separation and excessive crosstalk means they won’t have “air.” But heck- it is a budget working man’s design cartridge so it does pretty good. With the fix, groove noise remains low and like good first-generation cartridges, there are no loading problems.

    I use to pick them up for around $40 at eBay. No more. Apparently and quietly they have obtained cult status. Look at their prices now. Airy prices but not airy sound.

     I’ve even found a modern goodie with all the right stuff. Like the Sony XL-MC1, the problem is they cost too little. But they have all the right stuff. I won’t make mention of them anymore.

    And there are more. Perhaps I will share more later or I hope others will chime in.

    In each case, I listened to them carefully. I think there were smart designers. They had pride, determination, and rewards to get accurate sound. But the popular brands are not so good. They cut corners and they compromised to meet low price points. The rare designs that use good principles are refreshing. A few unpopular antique cartridges have build quality and natural sound that should be admired, and their sounds show atypical superiority. Now with low eBay prices they can be owned by everyone.

    Finally, I wish you all happy music using whatever you prefer.
    Siste redigert av WayAhead; 04.06.2019 kl. 07:10.

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  2. #2
    Hifi Freak WayAhead's Avatar
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    Så jeg tenkte, hvorfor ikke ta med en av de B&O pickupene han lovpriser langt over i Harpeland i samme slengen? Og Jaggu, der var det en til salgs på Bayen med ører for montasje i standard pickuphus. Som tenkt så kjøpt. B&O har jo alltid servert så jeg klinket til. 8 sommerhalvlitere, så får en se om fyren bare driver med fjas....

    B&O SP1:

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    Siste redigert av WayAhead; 27.05.2019 kl. 07:54.

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  3. #3
    Hifi Freak WayAhead's Avatar
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    Så viser det seg at sansui SC-32 er en "rebadged" Micro Seiki pickup - so I went 4 it

    Ifm litt z00ming på nettet viser det seg at Sansui SC-32 er samme pickup som Micro Seiki VF-3100. Ble litt nysgjerrig på hva patenten som er printet på carte står for og det er nokså spesielt. Se skisse nedenfor. Selve stifthuset er utstyr med en "Avstandsmåler" som kan vippes ned for justering av stifttrykket. Bakgrunnen er at nålen skal havne i eksakt optimal posisjon når stifttrykket er riktig inntilt. Deretter vippes "referansearmen" inn i stifthuset og "kør"....

    Dette er og en "Induced Magnet" PU.

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    3200 modellen

    VF-3100 specs, stiftshape ukjent, dvs, VF-3100/X


    Power generation method: VF (MI) type
    Output voltage: 4 mV (1 kHz / 3.54 cm / sec)
    Needle pressure: 1 to 2.5 g (optimum 2 g)
    Playback frequency band: 5-30,000 Hz
    Channel separation: 30 dB (1 kHz)
    Channel balance: less than 0.5 dB (1 kHz)
    Compliance: 20 × 10 -6 cm / dyne
    Load resistance: 47 kΩ
    DC resistance: 980 Ω
    Needle tip: 0.5 mil
    Weight: 7.5 g

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  4. #4
    Hifi Freak WayAhead's Avatar
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    Litt tilleggsinfo for B&O pickupen. Har mottatt den men nålefanen var bøyd så jeg har bestilt ny original. Disse er så spesielle mht design at D R fort gjort å kjøpe erstatning som ikke er riktig match - gift magneter/spoler.


    Mange typer stifter etter formål.
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  5. #5
    Hifi Freak WayAhead's Avatar
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    Første inntrykk av SONY*(SATIN) VC-8E.

    Kun hørt litt på "Mantovani" - A tribute I, BBC Orchestra, Live at the royal festival hall og Billy Ocean Get outta my dreams.

    Førstnevnte medium er kanskje (overraskende) ikke verdens beste innspilling virker det som eller noe "slitt" muligens men Sony/Satinen bryr seg ikke all verden om det.

    Billy Ocean er i nær mint eller mint og har vist at den låter fab med alle pickuper.

    Den korte foreløpige versjonen er at dette er lyd extragavanza.... tror ingen i verden ville vært misfornøyd med denne.

    Den gir hørbart bedre kanalseparasjon men er noe usikker på om dette er "den ultimate" greia, opplever ikke dette som "viktigst" av egenskaper/ene.

    Vel, drar igjennom en del mer lydmateriale etterhver og oppdaterer når jeg har hørt mer på den men den er knall god.

    SATIN M8-45E Moving Coil Phono Cartridge

    ■Output : 1(4) mV
    ■Tracking Force : 0.3~2.5g
    ■Frequency Response : 5-30,000Hz
    ■Channel Separation : 35dB
    ■Dynamic Compliance : 50×10-6cm/dyne
    ■Stylus : 0.8×0.2mil
    ■Weight 13.5g
    ■Stylus M8-NE

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  6. #6
    Hifi Freak WayAhead's Avatar
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    Litt mer info.

    - jeg tror stiften er helt ny og behøver noe innspilling
    - kanalseparasjonen på den PU er hele 35 dB og dette gjør at det virker som "stereomixen" på mediumet blir mer kritisk, for mye høyre-venstre og litt lite i midten av og til, (enkelte innspillinger)

    Lytteinntrykkene så langt i 3 faser... noen timers lytting....

    Pickupen låter helstøpt bra og har en unik evne til å håndtere Ssser som er litt ute av kontroll på enkelte plater som de første sporene på "Like a Prayer". De fleste av platene jeg spiller nå har en ukjent forhistorie, jeg har ikke kjøpt de nye så årsakene til de skakkjørte SSsene kan være fler men PUen takler de helt fantastisk.
    I denne fasen fant jeg den litt eller betydelig kjedeligere en feks ADC og Linerspilleren, dog med enkelte lysglimt.

    2) Mye klassisk, generelt bra kvalitet men brukte. Overbevisende men ikke "outstanding, men ettersom spilletiden plusset på tror jeg den begynte å yppe seg og Marilyns Horne i full utfoldelse på ei Eratoskive gjenga den heftig og kontrollert, antagelig vesentlig bedre enn de endre 2 PUene uten at jeg har sammenlignet de direkte.

    Det hadde vært mange timer med alskens musikk i forskjellige fasetter så lang men på dette tidspunktet hadde jeg forsåvidt tenkt å selge den igjen da den fremstå som mindre musikalsk og livlig enn de 2 andre PUene og jeg tror aldri den vil den vil matche disse i så måte. Men PU er helstøpt, leverer "like nothing else" og trår ikke en mikrometer feil....

    Legger til at den gir en kraftig, likevel normal bass...

    Men så, .....
    3) satte jeg på en plate med - etter reklamen på coveret - utsøkt produksjonskvalitet all the way....:
    Har alltid synes denne har hatt dårlig lyd osv ift omsorgen som åpenbart har vært vist ift produksjon i alle ledd...

    Nautulius Superdisks
    Half Speed Mastering

    "A natulius superdisc is a
    recording that reproduces with
    startling accuracy of all of the musical
    energy and dynamics recorded by
    the artist on the original master tape.
    Our Superdiscs are created using
    state of the art technology ant the
    finest imported virgin vinyl. Each
    record is individually inspected using
    the highest quality control
    standards. "Ticks and Pops"
    (surface noise) often found on mass-
    produced albums are virtually
    non-existent on Nautulius´ silky quiet
    pressings.This album will make your
    stereo system sound better .Listen to
    a Nautulius Superdisc and experience all the music.

    Men her ble fasiten snudd opp ned... Plutselig kom liveligheten og et dypere musikalsk inntrykk frem i dagen. Det er slikt som bare må høres.

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    Konklusjonen er at jeg tror denne PU har det beste fra begge verdner og har ombestemt meg, beholder den. Dette er jo en MC PU med utskiftbare stifter (på enkleste vis) samt MM signalstyrke ut, can get much better, ei?...
    Siste redigert av WayAhead; 13.06.2019 kl. 19:12.

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  7. #7
    Hifi Freak WayAhead's Avatar
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    Kanskje ikke så rart den, Sony, Denon/Satinen låter litt uinspirerende ift mine 2 standard hotshots after all,....- men den har kjøpt seg litt tid...

    Re: List best golden vintage carts

    Post by Paladin » 11 Dec 2011 21:02

    What do Denon and Sony have in common? According to them, nothing.

    Onkyo was a Japanese audio home-consumer brand. Onkyo Electric was the company. Denki Onkyo was the Japanese name. Later they shortened the name to Den-On and finally Denon. I am sure everyone knows this because there is nothing new under the Sun. Onkyo and Denon are the same company.

    In 1964 Denon and NHK produced the DL-103 broadcast cartridge. They are low output moving-coil designs with heavy tracking weights. The cartridges are still made. I am not nominating the DL-103 to the classics list. But those living fossils should be here.

    Here are the beyond vintage, the real fossils. In 1965 Onkyo made the crazy Satin M8-45 and M8-45E LOMC cartridges for home use. Both Denon-Onkyo DL-103 and Satin-Onkyo M8-45E shared inside dimensions but the Satin carts had a more consumer-friendly look. You have to admit the DL-103 is functional but dull looking boxes. The Satin internals are unquestionably different.

    I suspect the M8 series was Onkyo’s homegrown design. The sexier but still boxy Satin carts used replaceable high-compliance tips that can easily be found for around $7.50 today. Tracking weight was 0.5 to 1.5g. Frequency response was 10Hz to 30kHz. Output was 1.0mV. Today we can find the tips but not the cartridges. Are there secret collectors lurking?

    On this side, Satin cartridges were panned by reviewers and eventually buried by the inflow of new and inexpensive moving-magnet cartridges so they are more common outside the USA. It is a shame because the M8 cartridges really made a special sound. Their extremely close-tolerance build-quality is well above the Shure, Stanton, Pickering, and Grado cartridges I've seen from that era. The Satin carts were before their time and in some cases still ahead of modern. I think they are what we need today.

    Now, how does Satin M8 and the 1966 Sony VC-7p cartridges relate? The companies are tight-lipped so officially not a bit. I am amazed that they both Denon-Onkyo and Sony made absolutely identical LOMC cartridges with easily replaced tips at the same time. Apparently, the only differences are the badge name (but both had brushed-satin aluminum noses) and body color.

    Inside each one is a permanently installed beryllium torsion bar/coil mount/cantilever cradle. Basically, it is shaped like the outline of an eye. The double-arch ends holds the small coils next to an alnico magnet and cantilevers are well secured on the upper, or is that lower, torsion bar. Not sloppy stuff: they have very tight designs. Even the unusual four-in-a-row pin connections in back of the Satin/Sony cartridges are the same. What an incredible coincidence!

    The Sony VC-7P cartridge is far rarer than the Satin M8-45E. And do not confuse the 7P with the almost known Sony VC-8E. The 8E, looking exactly like the 7P, was touted as the, “first moving coil stereo cartridge with high output.” But high-output was not done the way it is today. In 1966, the HOMC VC-8E came with the first belt-driven servo-controlled turntable, the top of the line Sony TTS-3000. What a cool idea to give the best with the best! The tables used the grand PUA-286 or PUA-237 tonearms. Since 8E is heavier than the 7P, I suspect the dinosaur is low-output just like the VC-7P but 8E adds a miniature step-up-transformer (SUT) inside the case. The 8E can be used in standard phono outputs but I like the versatility of the 7P.

    There has never had mixed blood, twins, or clones from Denon-Onkyo and Sony. Nevertheless, I want to nominate the Satin M8-45, M8-45E, and Sony VC-7P to the list of classics.

    BTW: the Satin M8 replacement tips also fit the Sony VC-8E and VC-7P. Truly an amazing coincidence!
    Siste redigert av WayAhead; 14.06.2019 kl. 10:43.

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  8. #8
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    Interessant detalj ism B&O dokumentasjonen slik skjærehode/stift for å lage vinylmastere fremstilles i denne skissen ser det ut til at valg av stiftsliping er nokså innlysende - eller? Sjekk høvelen...

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