WayAhead
Æresmedlem
Well, Satin,Sony. Micro Seiki, Sansui, beste pickup noensinne? Kjøpte den anyway, ...
Ifm litt zooming ang pickuper dukket denne saken opp. I følge skribenten i innlegget nederst skal det være noe av det ypperste som noensinne er laget - opprinnelig fra 1964. Les innlegget.
Satinversjonen som heter Satin M8-45E = rebadged til Sony VC-8E og det er denne siste jeg har kjøpt..
Satin M8-45E finnes nå på eBay for 8-11 kkr: Sonyen derimot fikk jeg for prisen av 66% av originalstiften til ADC ZLM pickupen. Fant da ut at - basert på beskrivelsen nedenfor - id give it a try.
Imidlertid er jeg her å nå villig til å vedde på at Sonyen - uansett hvilken platespiller man måtte hekte den på - ikke spiller i nærheten av hva "Low End" lineærspilleren Sansui P-L51 leverer. Sånn er D bare.
Satin/Sonyen er en MC pickup med MM outputkapasitet og har utskiftbar stift.
Well,,,, når den enn måtte ankomme.. her er litt info...
Satin på eBay.
Gudd readin´
Welcome to the Wonderful Back to the Future Cartridges!- Vinyl Engine
Ifm litt zooming ang pickuper dukket denne saken opp. I følge skribenten i innlegget nederst skal det være noe av det ypperste som noensinne er laget - opprinnelig fra 1964. Les innlegget.
Satinversjonen som heter Satin M8-45E = rebadged til Sony VC-8E og det er denne siste jeg har kjøpt..
Satin M8-45E finnes nå på eBay for 8-11 kkr: Sonyen derimot fikk jeg for prisen av 66% av originalstiften til ADC ZLM pickupen. Fant da ut at - basert på beskrivelsen nedenfor - id give it a try.
Imidlertid er jeg her å nå villig til å vedde på at Sonyen - uansett hvilken platespiller man måtte hekte den på - ikke spiller i nærheten av hva "Low End" lineærspilleren Sansui P-L51 leverer. Sånn er D bare.
Satin/Sonyen er en MC pickup med MM outputkapasitet og har utskiftbar stift.
Well,,,, når den enn måtte ankomme.. her er litt info...
Sony VC-8E
1 9 6 6 1 9 7 1
Sony's first cartridge and a moving coil design, no less.
Well... not really - the VC-8E represents the first but only time Sony ever (partly) rebadged something from somebody else : the VC-8E originated from Satin !
(see the JP link below for the details)
Made to complement Sony's PUA-237 or PUA-286 tonearms, the VC-8E had three major features : very high compliance, very high 4mV output and stylus replacement.
Stylus replacement is performed with no tools whatsoever, just like with an MM cartridge - impressive, isn't it ?
Sony later on launched a sister company, Sound Tec, to develop its own cartridges until phono cartridges faded into oblivion (for Sony) circa 1985, after having launched a series of fairly successful mid-end MC cartridges with... guess what... user-replaceable stylus
A thorough comparison of contemporary Satin and Sony cartridges here.
Satin på eBay.
Spesifikasjoner for Satin/Sony pickupen:
SATIN M8-45E Moving Coil Phono Cartridge
■Output : 1(4) mV
■Tracking Force : 0.3~2.5g
■Frequency Response : 5-30,000Hz
■Channel Separation : 35dB
■Dynamic Compliance : 50×10-6cm/dyne
■Stylus : 0.8×0.2mil
■Weight 13.5g
■Stylus M8-NE
Gudd readin´
Welcome to the Wonderful Back to the Future Cartridges!- Vinyl Engine
Welcome to the Wonderful Back to the Future Cartridges!
Quote
Post by Paladin » 31 Dec 2014 01:43
Modern cartridges do their best in someone else’s place: sensible principles are proven in my home. Peeps go to great pains to force cartridges to work. I say, let it go and try an old cartridge that does their magic naturally.
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.”
-Richard P. Feynman
How do we know what parts to put on turntables? Oh, they can look good and be popular. We often assume good looks mean unrivaled performance. How many know that is false?
In the hey-day of “vinyls,” the design and implementation of cartridges makes all the difference in our record micro-worlds. I’m talking the entire design of the cartridge- not just the stuff we see or chat over. We all know what is best but do we know what is important? Hopefully, this post finds the people that really are dedicated and seeking just a little bit more.
My systems are provocative sounding: tube-like wholesomeness and some high delicate high-res too! The midrange is pure and the stereo separation zings off my walls. It’s the combination of using naturally musical cartridges with post-Quadraphonic solid-state equipment. But I avoid Quad equipment. It was a bad direction. It was a failure. Their cartridges failed for unobvious reasons but the equipment that needed to be tightened-up gave us quite a leap for audio reproduction.
It is not just resolution but how it is implemented. I don’t listen what for ‘what’s wrong.’ Instead, I kick back and enjoy. Simplicity and common sense is worth the work. And it can be cheap yet excellent. Band-Aids are patches to problems to cheap, modern, cartridges but their basic underlying problems remain. In the world of perfect, it is obvious that everything must be harmonious; tuned perfectly. That is what good, old-world, cartridges do best.
For those in a hurry, swing down to the middle to get the grandfather cartridges I recommend. We can get them cheaply because they are unpopular. I won’t get into the ‘why they work,’ but I may touch on a few highlights.
Quite common are the popular cartridges. In real life, they are really just “enhanced-mono” or “pseudo-stereo.” We know which ones they are by their design. They have limited separation, excessive crosstalk, loading problems, high groove noise, highest groove wear, and highest stylus wear. Often, they are modern-cheap and when you get them you don’t realize that to get them working to maybe minimum standards that they are going to cost you a stack of money. And peeps often wrongly figure out their problems.
OTOH, the best, the unpopular, are ignored. Some are the best. I call them sleeper cartridges.
What are popular cartridges? They went on everyman’s turntable. A famous cartridge maker bragged that they made 220,000 cartridges a month. That’s a big number. That is popular! If they are common then you have a popular cartridge. If there are multiple clones but just model number changes then you have a popular cartridge. When you bought a turntable in the ‘70s, if you took advantage of the ‘popular brand-name “1¢” or “free” cartridge sale,’ then you have a popular cartridge. If forums stir up your cartridge then you have a popular cartridge. If you can’t get a straight answer to your problems then you have a popular cartridge. If they cost a lot to run then you have a popular cartridge. Personally, I don’t like doubt and headaches. It’s counterproductive.
Do 1¢/free cartridges have design and manufacturing compromises? Do their high-priced kin have the same compromises? Your answer depends on your knowledge and experience. They are not what you want if you want good music.
There are cartridges we do not talk about. We simply shun them. What are these unpopular cartridges? Many of the few originally cost more. They didn’t popup in the Sunday ads. They have clever or extraordinary designs crucial to good sound. They can have extra quality in their assemblies. They were not on demo turntables. They were not in cheap storage boxes that were stored in the back room. They are no nonsense and special so they were on display; the lit front display case. Their nice boxes were handled gingerly because they were special.
Who was going to buy a $200+ cartridge when you get a popular one thrown in for a penny or free? If you bought an unpopular one then your friends would consider you daft or a snob. Either way, you lose popularity points. The unpopular cartridges are fewer and pricey. Definitely not for everyman. They are for the equally few deserving turntables that have the rights- the right parts. They make real turntables show us ‘the next level.’ Finally, in another category, some were rebrands of the famous. Those can be the real treasures.
It’s fun to go with the “in” crowd. To get serious about audio, it is personal and you have to think for yourself. To do that, you need to know what you are doing. Others use a lot of makeup to look pretty but pure beauty is natural- and you know it when you see it. A cleverly designed cartridge that does not taunt physics is a beautiful thing.
The ones I recommend are unpopular. Forgotten, they are cheap and have great support. How did I find them?
I work in reverse. At eBay, I look for buried low-cost styluses. Then I backtrack to find out what they fit. If I find a cartridge match then I look for it and its variations. Then I start digging. I research their patents and see what makes them tick. The ones with sound designs are on my personal scorecard. Then I wait. When an odd-duck cartridge wanders through eBay at a low price and I’m ready. I rarely get a counterbid and if there is one then it is small because they didn’t do their homework.
These cartridges are not for tweakers. Installed, they work. This is for the beginner or the guy that wants to have good fun at low cost. Properly designed cartridges do their best to reproduce accurate stereo sound and add as little to the chorus as possible.
UNPOPULAR CARTRIDGES HAVE GREAT VALUE TO ME: TRUSTWORTHY CARTRIDGES TO LOOK FOR
Can MM/MI cartridges have “air?” The right ones do. It is inherent in their designs. They can stand level with LOMC cartridges. Their prices are right and they won’t play second-fiddle.
http://i62.tinypic.com/293ir9s.jpg
BANG & OLUFSEN (B&O) SP1 &SP2; aka DYNACO STEREODYNE II and PERPETUUM EBNER PE9000 (PE-9000.) By using a push-pull configuration, these moving-iron cartridges give half the distortion. Look up isobaric speakers for the reasons why they are both are good for you. Today you can pay up to $2800 for their patented MMC/SMMC cartridges. All use the Moving Micro-Cross principle. The SP1 & SP are unsealed so replacing their styluses is a breeze. Many get fooled by their higher impedance but that is appearance only. They forget that this is a push-pull design. They are electrically/mechanically balanced. In their day and in their class, they were bad-ass- they had the flattest response. Yes, in MM/MI designs, you can get “air” (broadband separation, natural high octave, and minimum crosstalk.) I could add the newer SP12 but they were rediscovered so they got scooped up. Pricewise the SP12 and their close kin are losers but the older SP1 and SP2 are available. I got my derelicts for under $50. Styluses run around $20.
They are straight up cartridges- not sloppy sounding. They will make you want to revisit your older records and you’ll gain more respect for the sounds you get.
Who is going to argue if folks want to pay $1100 for $60 cartridges? Sony XL-MC1, MC2, & MC3 are another isobaric/push-pull design. Again, they have half the distortion. In this case, the high-compliance LOMC cartridges use replaceable styluses. New at $60, they were sneered at- they didn’t sell. I almost think Sony was trying to tell us LOMC cartridges don’t have to be expensive. Sony quickly dropped them when their CD format rocks and digital took off. But with a little marketing by adding a shroud to hide the body, adding that they are Mark Levinson designed, and rumors that they were made by Clearaudio from Germany, made them beyond criticism. It looks like the XL-MC series became the legendary $1100 Madrigal Carnegie-One cartridges. Adjusted for inflation, the Carnegie-One cartridges would be $2200 today. They are audiophile’s wet dreams. Well, the shroud that prevented stylus replacement was heavier, more mass where it counts, so they give more bass. But I could do the same to the Sony cartridge by adding a penny to the top. EBay is your friend. Only $30 each so I got a couple and the styluses were $15 each.
They have the Shure fat bass sound with the addition of an energetic and smooth midrange overlays plus a natural, realistic, top end. It’s good but the next one is far better.
http://i62.tinypic.com/4r2v61.gif
It is worth getting a really good turntable for these. Because of weight, they are tough to mount but the dedicated can handle it. The Sony VC-8E and VC-7P high-compliance LOMC cartridges have special coils (what’s that?) to give higher output. But they still have the performance of LOMC cartridges. Both versions are high-compliance, 30 to 50-CU, and their tracking weight is 0.3 to 2.5g. The VC-8E with the help of a miniature SUT in the cartridge body has an output of 4-mV. The 7P lacks the primitive SUT but still has a healthy output of 1-mV. I prefer the 7P’s adaptability and sound. Their beryllium-bridges show amazing workmanship. And so do the entire cartridges. 1-kHz stereo separation is excellent at- 36-dB. That is more than twice the separation of a famous modern audiophile MM cartridge. The Sony’s have long legs. At 10-kHz they maintains an astonishing separation of 30dB- all done within the bounds of physics. Others fall way behind. The widely-spaced beryllium-bridge gives us little crosstalk.
To get higher output, they use a patented square coil design for 27% closer packing. That is a 27% reduction in size and more much more control over cantilever overshooting. They take replaceable styluses that are mounted on a rigid framework I call a “sled.” And if you look closely then you’ll see a short cantilever. We know that advantage. It would be astonishing technology today but these were designed half a century ago in 1964! Adjusted for inflation, the cartridges were $2157 and the styluses were $541 each. These appear to be (Sony isn’t saying) rebranded versions of the coveted, legendary, and rare Satin M8-45E. The Sony cartridges cost me $30 and the styluses are $6. Easy pickings at eBay.
They are splashy and spectacular sounding. Pure vinyl sound is pulled-out here. They have pure performance and their separation is consistent: it saturates and oozes off walls. If you want “air” then these are serious beasts to look for.
An induced magnet design without the ADC problem and under $10 each at eBay. In the western world, the Micro-Seiki VF-3100 cartridges are pretty much unknown making them rare. It is easier to find there rebranded versions like the SANSUI SC-32, SC-50, and SC-80. They use the induced magnet design. And you’ll find a lot of styluses are still available at low cost.
ADC and the Micro Seiki/Sansui have similar sounds to LOMC cartridge but have higher output. But engineering gives a bit less stereo separation but much better than a modern ‘audiophile-tuned’ cartridge. They are still much better than a modern low-cost audiophile cartridge. The main advantage to the Sansui is you can still get NOS styluses for low cost.
SHURE M3D; the first stereo cartridge. The M3D/M7D/RADIO SHACK RS100 are really sloths. But their syrupy sound is so smooth. Physical limits means no high octave and worst groove/stylus wear. And Shure’s weakness has always been the lack of stereo separation. In separation, their later reboots were rougher sounding. And despite their marketing of ‘light tracking is best,’ they never addressed the excessive groove/stylus wear. Light-tracking is more to induce the thin cantilever rough acting synthesized/artificial highs boost. The original M-series quit at 12-kHz. But when rare third-generation MM technology is easily and cheaply grafted on them then they become competitive with the legendary, and pricey, SP- except in separation. No broadband separation and excessive crosstalk means they won’t have “air.” But heck- it is a budget working man’s design cartridge so it does pretty good. With the fix, groove noise remains low and like good first-generation cartridges, there are no loading problems.
I use to pick them up for around $40 at eBay. No more. Apparently and quietly they have obtained cult status. Look at their prices now. Airy prices but not airy sound.
I’ve even found a modern goodie with all the right stuff. Like the Sony XL-MC1, the problem is they cost too little. But they have all the right stuff. I won’t make mention of them anymore.
And there are more. Perhaps I will share more later or I hope others will chime in.
In each case, I listened to them carefully. I think there were smart designers. They had pride, determination, and rewards to get accurate sound. But the popular brands are not so good. They cut corners and they compromised to meet low price points. The rare designs that use good principles are refreshing. A few unpopular antique cartridges have build quality and natural sound that should be admired, and their sounds show atypical superiority. Now with low eBay prices they can be owned by everyone.
Finally, I wish you all happy music using whatever you prefer.
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