Electrocompaniet + Gunnar Brekke = ??............ ny platespiller........ med Jelco arm "orginalt" ?
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Electrocompaniet + Gunnar Brekke = ??
- Trådstarter Rudi
- Startdato
Diskusjonstråd Se tråd i gallerivisning
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EC kommer med platespiller...
Hva jeg er ute etter ??........... trodde dette var et forum hvor man kunne dele nyheter uten og måtte være "ute etter noe", men selvfølgelig....... jeg kan ta feil.
Jeg i min lille snevre verden syntes det var spennende at Gunnar Brekke bistår EC med og lage deres første platespiller.
hei,
Det var voldsomt så hårsår og i forsvar du var?!
Spørsmålet var i beste mening!!!
Som jeg sa.... Jeg er sikkert treg... Jeg forstod ikke den korte teksten din?
Hvordan skulle jeg vite at det var det du mente? For dette er nytt for meg
mvh
Kjetil
Og det var bra du gjorde. Syntes dette var en spennende nyhet jeg også nå som jeg forstod hva du mente!
hei,
Det var voldsomt så hårsår og i forsvar du var?!
Spørsmålet var i beste mening!!!
Som jeg sa.... Jeg er sikkert treg... Jeg forstod ikke den korte teksten din?
Hvordan skulle jeg vite at det var det du mente? For dette er nytt for meg
mvh
Kjetil
Sorry, har ikke hår på hodet.
Hadde ikke hørt om dette jeg heller, men når jeg så hørte om det, tenkte jeg å dele det lille jeg fikk vite....... my bad.
Men jeg forstod ikke det av åpningsinnlegget ditt, og da må det være lov spørre?
Så jeg forstår ikke hvorfor du av slutter med "my bad"?
Jeg er aldri ute etter å lage noe kvalme, så beklager om du oppfattet mine innlegg som det!
Men nok om det, takk for at du delte dette.
mvh
Kjetil
Hadde heller ikke hørt om dette og klødde meg i hodet etter hva du mente med tittelen i tråden jeg og, men Kjetil kom meg i forkjøpet med å spørre. Var ikke den mest informative tittelen
Men spennende dette... Del i vei. Hva er det han skal bidra med i dette samarbeidet?
Det er jo litt spennende, da, med platespiller fra vår lokale hifi-produsent.
Antar at de ikke har kapasitet til å produsere drivverk og denslags selv. Da finnes flere alternativ, og det kan være nyttig å spekulere litt.
Jo, faktisk, fordi spekulasjoner kan lokke fram reell info fra folk som vet noe.
Spekulasjon 1: ProJect leverer drivverk. Produsert et sted i Øst-Europa.
Spekulasjon 2: Det blir noe kinesisk.Er det noen her på forumet som kan sette sammen en god vinylspiller, så er det Rudi, Gunar Brekke, Zomby_Woof, Arne Justad, Lagga, Impulse & Audiomix (håper jeg ikke har glemt noen).
Edit: Har utelatt våre danske venner, men virker dyktige de og.
mvh
Jeg VET ikke, men det skulle ikke forundre meg om dette blir produsert på Tau med innkjøpte armer fra Jelco, kan ikke tenke meg at Gunnar Brekke blander seg bort i noe Kinesisk
MEN....... det jeg der i mot tror, er at så lenge Gunnar Brekke har hatt en finger med i det hele så blir det helt sikkert en meget verdig "første" spiller fra EC........ det var noen som nøs noe om ca 25k........ men fyren kan bare har vært kraftig forkjølet eller kommet med "feberishe" utsagn
Samarbeid med Thorens eller Rega tenker jeg.
Eller nei, det går ikke, da burde jo armen vært Rega.
Thorens får vel sine drivverk produsert hos en såkalt konkurrent.
25k høres veldig beskjedent ut for en EC spiller.
Da blir det ProJect drivverk. Svart blankpolert a la den Music Hall jeg hadde en gang.
Have faith ottone, have faith
Først som sist; jeg syntes også åpningen din var litt.....øøhh - kryptisk, Rudi. Desto mer spennende ble det jo, etter hvert! Jeg håper virkelig at det ikke blir enda en Rega-kloning. Helauto og direktedrevet kan jo bli spennende, og hva med en skikkelig oppfølger av B & O's ( i sin tid ) legendariske tangentialspiller? Jeg hadde en av de, og mindre fuzz har jeg aldri hatt med en vinylspiller. Begrensningen lå bl.a. i utvalget av p.u'er, og sett med dagens øyne, var vel arma nokså enkle greier. Men det enkle er ofte også det beste. Med så mange knallgode spillere på markedet, skal det bli interessant å følge med på dette!
Det var jo akurat det jeg ønsker at det skulle være........ litt kryptisk i og med at dette er noe helt nytt som vel antagligvis ikke er helt offisielt enda
Men spennende lell, det lille jeg hørte var det snakk om unipivot lagring av tallerkenen, men absolutt alt jeg har skrevet i denne tråden kan jeg IKKE stå inne for da det er som rene spekulasjoner og regne inntil EC selv kommer med fakta på bordet, men jeg gleder meg jeg...... ække daglidags med en norsk produsert platespiller....... og med en Jelco arm får man fleskisbilitet og god lydkvalitet så det holder...... tror dette kan bli veldig bra jeg.
Spennende! Deres tilnærming til Blu-Ray var jo å ta en av de beste spillerene i mellomklassen og optimaliserte den. Akkurat nå så ser jeg for meg en spiller med akrylfront med akryltallerken ala McIntosh
OU812Har lest det angående Mc ja. Dersom design og helhet / corporate identity er viktig (og det er det IMO) så er det også et poeng med en spiller forkledd som EC. Det er bare det at en platespiller står seg meget godt alene i setupen uten at den trenger samme merke som resten av utstyret. For at EC spillern skal bli en suksess så må den ha noen tilleggsfunksjoner eller detaljer, da kan det bli bra.Det var jo akurat det jeg ønsker at det skulle være........ litt kryptisk i og med at dette er noe helt nytt som vel antagligvis ikke er helt offisielt enda
Men spennende lell, det lille jeg hørte var det snakk om unipivot lagring av tallerkenen, men absolutt alt jeg har skrevet i denne tråden kan jeg IKKE stå inne for da det er som rene spekulasjoner og regne inntil EC selv kommer med fakta på bordet, men jeg gleder meg jeg...... ække daglidags med en norsk produsert platespiller....... og med en Jelco arm får man fleskisbilitet og god lydkvalitet så det holder...... tror dette kan bli veldig bra jeg.
Som den til høyre?
Platter Design
There are many parameters involved in platter design but this article will focus primarily on the dynamic behavior, namely, mass distribution, dynamic balancing and bearing systems on the mechanical side. A complete study would have required an entire book and anyway, this is just a kind of excuse. In truth, this area of platter design proves to be the perfect example to highlight much more important questions which is the very intention of this article. A survey of the techniques in use will point out their respective advantages and drawbacks. Subsequently, a short reminder of some good old physics and philosophy will set the basics and, from these preliminaries, an answer will emerge and lead to an important and surprising conclusion. This article has been written in layman's terms with the intention of being easily understood by anyone.
The platter of an analogue turntable is primarily in charge of handling the vinyl record, to ensure its centering and horizontality, to spin it at the right speed with a high degree of accuracy and silence, and to deal with various external vibrations as well as those generated by the tracking and bearing. A much more difficult task than one would suspect. The platter acts as the heart of the machine. All of the other components ultimately play a supporting role and are comparatively of a lesser importance.
The Usual Bearing
In most turntables, the platter is supported by a bearing point at the end of a long spindle that is mounted on the platter and sticking well below it. The female bearing remains on the chassis. This usual and conventional bearing, intensively used by Thorens, Linn and so many other brands, can provide positive results but quickly reaches obvious limitations. Such a system is highly instable. The General Center of Gravity being above the supporting point, also called the Point of Rotation or the Pivot, has a constant tendency to topple. Without the female bearing sleeve it will inevitably topple. The sleeve holds and prevents it from rocking and falling. The smallest error in leveling, imbalance in the platter, the pulling to one side by a drive belt, the tracking force of the arm and, most importantly, the mass of the platter all produce high pressure on the bearing contacts. Moreover, the pressure increases in spinning mode as the centrifugal force tends to eject the platter away. This translates in a complex spinning system with high friction, noise and premature wear. Exactly what we do not want for our turntable.
In fact, the behavior of the spindle, hence of the platter, becomes quite chaotic. It rocks and chatters inside its mechanical play and is subject to all secondary microscopic movements of any dynamically imperfect physical body spinning on an axis. As a final result, varying pressures and a whole series of constantly changing resonances within the bearing are at work, affecting the platter rotation and producing a result that is all but smooth.
If the platter is well balanced, the situation improves but the basic instability remains. This dynamic balancing can only be performed in a way that can be witnessed at your local tire shop - a very rudimentary method.
With so many drawbacks, it is no surprise to get a rotation of poor quality. Spinning the platter by hand and releasing it always produces a very short "run down time". This clearly demonstrates the high level of effort and friction within the bearing that the motor has to overcome, not too mention the increased power consumption and noise produced. All things being equal, the simple comparison with the run down time of another platter shows without a doubt which platter/bearing combo is better designed, or manufactured (providing they have both been broken in, well-cleaned and duly oiled).
The stylus inevitably tracks all noises, friction, efforts, micro-movements and resonances. The music becomes blurred and constrained, the dynamics lose punch and low frequencies sound the same, becoming badly defined
In Physics, such a platter cannot be considered "Perfect". It is not a "Pure Mass". Note that Direct Drive turntables belong to that category.
A Better Bearing
Designers have another choice, the less common "Inverted Bearing". In this case, the female part, or sleeve, is built as one solid piece into the platter and the spindle is fixed to the chassis pointing upward. The General Center of Gravity Sonderzeichen now passes under the point of rotation and the system becomes stable indeed. There is no more will to topple. Both friction and noise decrease - a great improvement.
Unfortunately a pendulum is so created which limits the improvement. Its own resonance frequency is very easy to calculate (school basics). One could argue that it cannot oscillate for the spindle maintains the sleeve. This is not the case. In mechanics, the "zero play" does not exist. To be effective, any spinning movement needs a "mechanical play" between spindle and sleeve or it would be at a high risk to jam. This is even called "the working play" or "the functional play". Parasites randomly take place in this tiny interval as soon as the rotation begins and do not stop in steady speed mode. Yet again, vibrations, chattering, friction and noise are all tracked by the stylus and once more, there is a bigger demand on the motor and more noise is produced as a result.
The dynamic balancing can be more accurately performed with the same "tire shop method" or with the "tilt test" which gets rid of bearing friction. Placed upon a thin spindle for example, the platter tilts in the direction of the excess of mass. Then, a few holes are drilled there and under the platter edge, removing some mass. The tilt angle decreases and after a few trials, the platter finally stays still and adequately horizontal with the center of gravity aligned on the geometric vertical axis passing through the point of rotation, the pivot, just above.
But again, the accuracy is still insufficient because, hole after hole, the off-centered mass decreases as does the tilt angle which finally becomes too small to be located precisely enough and consequently, nobody is able to know exactly where to drill the holes. Although the dynamic balancing is slightly better, it is far from being complete. The run-down time is improved as well but it remains rather short. On a lesser degree the centrifugal force still tends to eject the platter away which results in the same nasty collection of pressures, friction, noises, vibrations and so on, all readily tracked by the stylus.
Once again, the system cannot be described as "Perfect".
It is not a "Pure Mass".
The few other manufacturers using the inverted bearing throw away its advantages by either placing the point of rotation too high (pendulum) or too low (instability) and/or by using too long a sleeve or a "2 sleeve bearing". This gives the bearing several axes resulting in friction and noise. We recall that a single line is defined in geometry by 2 points only.
A Question Of Philosophy
All audiophiles have already heard the saying "HiFi is a quest". It is a quest for perfection, a quest for the absolute, for beauty, for the musical truth. The truth doesn't have to please or not to please. It simply is and that's all. Beware of the spectacular, the hype. The living musical event is the truth and playing a recording at home is something else entirely. Any serious audiophile expects his audio equipment to sound as close to the living event as possible and he spares no pains, no time and no money to reach that point solely for the passion of music. Who is there for other reasons is not an audiophile.
The audiophile always looks for the best. Step by step, as his experience and knowledge proceeds, he improves his audio system, trial after trial, and goes through all hopes, satisfactions and disappointments. The game is endless.
Logically, the audiophile favors the source because the perfect electronics and speakers are not able to recover something already lost. "All that is lost from the source is lost forever". The turntable acts as the source of the complete audio system and the platter is the heart of the turntable. On the other hand, arm and cartridge also make an all–important combination, a whole. They never solely track a record, they always track another whole, that is, the record and platter combo and how a poorly designed platter damages the musical quality has just been discussed above. To achieve real dynamic range, transient response, deep bass, image, clarity, credibility, emotion or any other musical characteristic requires an absolutely neutral reference.
A Question Of Physics
In theoretical terms the ideal platter should be perfectly neutral. In contrast to a musical instrument, it is not allowed to "make music" by itself, but rather it must track the record without any additions or omissions and thus no personal signature. When the artistic event has been performed and recorded, its integrity must be respected. This is the audiophile's golden rule.
Neutrality stands on a fine line between pleasant low colorations and over-damping. Neutrality is the very first quality of a complete player, which in addition, acts as the source for the entire audio system.
Mathematics demonstrates that neutrality can be satisfied by Pure Mass. Here we are. In Physics, the concept of Pure Mass is defined by a particular case of the general balance of any given body. What is that exactly?
Center of Gravity is a clear notion. It is almost intuitive. Everything has a Center of Gravity (or Barycenter) that we can roughly locate and therefore claim, "It is there".
Sonderzeichen
The Center of Inertia (always a big Sonderzeichen) is different because one chooses to calculate the Moment of Inertia of the body in regards to the geometrical point in question. It is then that the mathematician is able to calculate the so-called "Ellipsoid of Inertia" which provides all possible information concerning the dynamic behavior of the body. In fact, when we wish to know everything regarding the dynamic properties of a certain body, we do not need to know what it is, we only need its Ellipsoid of Inertia.
A body is considered a Pure Mass or "Perfect" when it is perfectly balanced on one point, the Point of Rotation, which is also its Center of Gravity. Point of Rotation and Center of Gravity are coincident. The Ellipsoid of Inertia becomes the "Central Ellipsoid of Inertia".
This highly aesthetic and particular case gives the body a number of exceptional dynamic properties. In perfect dynamic balancing, the body has no will of its own, no signature and no personality. It is "dead", neutral. It is obvious just how significant a role this notion of physics will play in arm design. Such a perfect system also benefits from secondary advantages, true natural gifts: It reacts perfectly to any input of energy, any parasitic force originating from outside (vibrations, belt drag, arm tracking force, resonances etc.) is reduced to a minimum and all microscopic movements are cancelled.
Application
A turntable platter designed in this way profits from all theoretical properties of a Pure Mass. More than stable, it becomes "indifferent". If one ignores the bearing sleeve and tilts the platter, it will neither fall over nor will it oscillate like a pendulum, rather it will simply stay in that position. Point of rotation and Center of Gravity remain coincident in all cases. Dynamic balancing can be achieved to near perfection for a simple butterfly landing on the edge is enough to topple it. To reiterate, the platter reacts perfectly to any input of energy and experience shows that the balancing accuracy reaches up to only a half of a gram. This is an incredibly low value in comparison to the platter mass and a far cry from the standard. The sleeve therefore has no load to handle and as it is there purely as a "keeper", it can be reduced to a simple ring. As a result, rotation is exceptionally free and the platter will spin several minutes with just a push. There could be no better demonstration of very low bearing friction.
Such a smooth rotation obviously means that the motor has little work to do, resulting in decreased noise. It merely provides the slightest top-up to keep the platter spinning. An old tip of the engraving engineers was precisely to reduce the drive motor torque close to the breaking point in order to improve the signal noise ratio and the rotation quality of the lath.
So we are able to see here that the correct application of the Pure Mass concept brings various benefits with it including neutrality, quality of the rotation, less motor noise, less bearing noise, lower wear rates, reduced significance of critical leveling, no complex resonance and so on.
To summarize, the "Perfect Platter" would require an inverted bearing principle with only one low-down, short ring as sleeve and the General Center of Gravity coincident with the Center of Rotation - elegant and simple.
A Little Secret
In the real world, it is simply not possible to exactly coincide the Center of Gravity and the bearing point and attempting this can have its disadvantages. This is simply due to the limits of mechanical tolerance and any attempts at exact coincidence will either leave the pivot too high or too low. If the pivot is too high, the platter will be a mini pendulum with a high (audible) resonance and if it is too low, the platter will be unstable. The solution is to compromise with a difference of 1 mm, which in production results in approximately 1.0mm +/- 0.1 mm. In this case, the mini pendulum theoretically oscillates within a safe area and is easily controlled by both the sleeve and the platter inertia.
Conclusions
There are far too many products on the market that are faulty and designed with the "Objet d'Art" in mind rather than musical reproduction. To ignore fundamentals such as mass distribution and acoustic impedance, to name just two, can only end in a compromised product.
Obviously the laws of physics are demanding but they are the laws of God and remain un-changing. One could nevertheless maintain that good physics are merely the foundation of good design and that time and experience, love and even luck are what add the final touch in producing an outstanding analogue source.
Now the question is: Would you prefer a well-designed platter or a common one affected with all of the defects described above?
From now on, the virus is growing in you and every time you will see and listen to a turntable, even a great and expensive one, you will hear a little voice murmuring, "Remember just how much better it would be if physics would be respected".
There are hundreds of other parameters involved in platter design but even so, this cannot be used as an excuse for defects in design. Even with the utmost care to sound propagation, correct grounding and to the acoustic impedance of the materials etc., all will be lost or at least corrupted if a weak point sets the overall limit of the results.
Whether it is light or heavy, made of aluminum or composite, designed as one solid piece or as sandwiched components, there is basically only one way to design a platter.
Pierre Lurné
Audiomeca
Audiomeca
Route de Tessy
74370 Pringy, France
Voice: +33 450 27 20 64
E-mail: audio@audiomeca-hifi.com
Website: www.audiomeca-hifi.com
Sist redigert:
Og til orientering. Denne teksten om platter design er forfattet av Pierre Lurné fra Audiomeca. Mailet med han for fire fem år tilbake og fikk tilsendt denne teksten på mail. Har selv en J1, og Pierres spillere er designet rundt de prinsippene han beskriver her.
beklager off-topic.ZZomby_Woof
Gjest
Jeg 'sette sammen' en platespiller? Nå har jeg hørt det og.
Kanskje noe å tenke på, forresten? Jeg har tross alt ei høne å plukke med EC...
Sist redigert av en moderator:
Hehehe, man skjønner kjapt at det dreier seg om langt mer avanserte greier enn selv rakettvitenskap. For selv om kineserne har klart å seg bra på sistnevnte område - blant flere - så sliter de visst voldsomt med å produsere et godt nok drivverk for den kresne hifientusiast i vesten.
Det forstår jeg.Jeg 'sette sammen' en platespiller? Nå har jeg hørt det og.
Kanskje noe å tenke på, forresten? Jeg har tross alt ei høne å plukke med EC...
Vis vedlegget 251578
Electrocompaniet - DP Line
Bør være litt av en platespiller for å bøte på det der.ZZomby_Woof
Gjest
Ser at jeg muligens var litt overtrøtt i går kveld.... Jeg kunne neppe bidratt stort til et godt platespillerprosjekt. Mer som en hevn for....
Men, hvorfor ikke? Regner med at det kryr av gode produsenter av mekaniske deler på Haugalandet, Stavanger og nedover Jæren. Dyktige ingeniører på mekanikk er det sikkert også. Tviler på at EC kommer til å lage platespillerens enkeltdeler noe mer enn de lager transistorer i dag. Det er vel ganske få 'platespillerprodusenter' som gjør det når det kommer til stykket, enda mindre primært elektronikkprodusenter som utvider porteføljen med en platespiller.
Fort gjort å ende med en 'me to', eller en utseendemessig tilpasset og lettere modifisert 'hyllevare'. Jeg er ikke sikker på at markedet 'trenger' det.
Men, men. Og visst er jeg pissed på EC for at de i praksis tok livet av DP. Kom forresten på et potensielt problem med å markedsføre DP-line i engelskspråklige markeder...
Hei.
Det er korrekt at Electrocompaniet har en platespiller på gang.
Dette er ikke et OEM produkt, men en spiller som skal produseres
av Electrocompaniet selv. Armen er ganske riktig en (10") Jelco.
I tillegg kommer det en - eller to - pickuper (OEM) pluss en RIAA.
DP-fansen kan glede seg over at den er i meget stor grad er basert
på DPR-2,2 RIAA.
Alt dette - og mye mer - vil bli vist første gang i Munchen.
mvh
Gunnar BrekkeSist redigert:
Høyt tempo Gunnar?
F-104 med etterbrenner
Du kommenterte ikke hvor mange fingrer du deltar med. Ikke direkte i hvert fall.
Siden jeg ble nevnt et stykke opp her:
Jeg er ingen ekspert på platespillere.Se oppslag om den kommende platespilleren her:
Electrocompaniet goes vinyl!
Neppe sammenlignbart med vinylavspilling. De voldsomme krav til lisensiering, sertifisering og denslags som skal til for å kunne produsere en BR-spiller, gjør at dette er nesten uoverkommelig å gjøre fra scratch for en liten produsent med små produksjonsserier.
Vinyl, derimot.
Synes de kunne spart seg for "gull"knappene på denne , det ser veldig jalla ut :/ZZomby_Woof
Gjest
Oh dear! Det var ikke pent....
Noen bilder har en mer EC-typisk konfigurasjon av knappene, ser jeg. En tidlig prototype, kanskje.
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- 08.03.2002
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gull er da ikke per def jalla? -
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