Belt replacement Denon DRS-810 pictures

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  • frog79

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    Denne posten skulle opprinnelig havne på Tapeheads.net..

    Men ettersom forumløsningen deres BESTANDIG skal krangle med innlegg og bildeopplastningene mine poster jeg den likegreit her. Denne posten er i all hovedsak laget for at Google skal indeksere bildene og gjøre de tilgjengelige i bildesøket deres da det knapt fins bilder av denne transporten demontert.



    Theres not much regarding this deck at all on the internet.. Least of all pictures of the transport taken apart..

    Today i replaced all the belts on this deck. Capstan, drawer loading and mode belt. This deck had all the original belts in it and up to now they did perform well. However the mode belt started slipping some weeks ago causing the deck to have no output and stop after a few seconds when engaging play. Seems to be a typical problem with these decks.

    The capstan belt was still up to spec and had alot of tightness to it when installed, however it did not have much grip to it due to its age. A good wash with isopropyl alcohol fixed that but after looking through my collection of belts i found a new good one with the same dimensions so i swapped it out.

    Like i normally do, pictures were taken during the disassembly for my own reference if i screw up somewhere. I did not mean to share them with anyone. However with the total lack of pictures on the net regarding this transport i might aswell share some of them here for future reference if someone needs to do this themselves.

    Be warned though.. This job is probably not for the total beginner. This is not the first deck you want to start working on.. Its quite the rats nest of wires and sensors and there is not much space to work on unless you disconnect them all. I did eventually have to remove the power supply and its PCB to be able to get the transport out of the deck itself.

    Im 99% sure this deck uses the same transport as the Harman Kardon 470. So these pictures might apply to that deck aswell.

    DSCF8711.jpg

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    komfort

    Hi-Fi freak
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    Denne posten skulle opprinnelig havne på Tapeheads.net..

    Men ettersom forumløsningen deres BESTANDIG skal krangle med innlegg og bildeopplastningene mine poster jeg den likegreit her. Denne posten er i all hovedsak laget for at Google skal indeksere bildene og gjøre de tilgjengelige i bildesøket deres da det knapt fins bilder av denne transporten demontert.



    Theres not much regarding this deck at all on the internet.. Least of all pictures of the transport taken apart..

    Today i replaced all the belts on this deck. Capstan, drawer loading and mode belt. This deck had all the original belts in it and up to now they did perform well. However the mode belt started slipping some weeks ago causing the deck to have no output and stop after a few seconds when engaging play. Seems to be a typical problem with these decks.

    The capstan belt was still up to spec and had alot of tightness to it when installed, however it did not have much grip to it due to its age. A good wash with isopropyl alcohol fixed that but after looking through my collection of belts i found a new good one with the same dimensions so i swapped it out.

    Like i normally do, pictures were taken during the disassembly for my own reference if i screw up somewhere. I did not mean to share them with anyone. However with the total lack of pictures on the net regarding this transport i might aswell share some of them here for future reference if someone needs to do this themselves.

    Be warned though.. This job is probably not for the total beginner. This is not the first deck you want to start working on.. Its quite the rats nest of wires and sensors and there is not much space to work on unless you disconnect them all. I did eventually have to remove the power supply and its PCB to be able to get the transport out of the deck itself.

    Im 99% sure this deck uses the same transport as the Harman Kardon 470. So these pictures might apply to that deck aswell.

    Vis vedlegget 531578
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    Takk for info, gruer meg til belteskift dagen kommer 😊
     

    joliv

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    Denne posten skulle opprinnelig havne på Tapeheads.net..

    Men ettersom forumløsningen deres BESTANDIG skal krangle med innlegg og bildeopplastningene mine poster jeg den likegreit her. Denne posten er i all hovedsak laget for at Google skal indeksere bildene og gjøre de tilgjengelige i bildesøket deres da det knapt fins bilder av denne transporten demontert.



    Theres not much regarding this deck at all on the internet.. Least of all pictures of the transport taken apart..

    Today i replaced all the belts on this deck. Capstan, drawer loading and mode belt. This deck had all the original belts in it and up to now they did perform well. However the mode belt started slipping some weeks ago causing the deck to have no output and stop after a few seconds when engaging play. Seems to be a typical problem with these decks.

    The capstan belt was still up to spec and had alot of tightness to it when installed, however it did not have much grip to it due to its age. A good wash with isopropyl alcohol fixed that but after looking through my collection of belts i found a new good one with the same dimensions so i swapped it out.

    Like i normally do, pictures were taken during the disassembly for my own reference if i screw up somewhere. I did not mean to share them with anyone. However with the total lack of pictures on the net regarding this transport i might aswell share some of them here for future reference if someone needs to do this themselves.

    Be warned though.. This job is probably not for the total beginner. This is not the first deck you want to start working on.. Its quite the rats nest of wires and sensors and there is not much space to work on unless you disconnect them all. I did eventually have to remove the power supply and its PCB to be able to get the transport out of the deck itself.

    Im 99% sure this deck uses the same transport as the Harman Kardon 470. So these pictures might apply to that deck aswell.

    Vis vedlegget 531578
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    Hello
    Thank you for these photos I found: I'm about to replace the belts on a DRS-810 I acquired last week with quite noticeable Wow & Flutter, so looking for as many info as I can get as like you said it's not an easy job. Did you also disassembled the front panel ? not clear from photos. Is it really necessary to take out the power supply ? working space is the reason ? any other hints you can give me ? Also, I hear a motor (?) noise after a few minutes, but might be as well a capstan belt issue, did you have the same ? Thanks for your reply
     

    frog79

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    Hi there!

    No i did not remove the front panel, however you have to take off the front "lid" of the loading drawer to be able to slide the mechanism out of the deck.

    Removal of the power supply unit was done to get the transport out, you might be able to do it without removing it but its a tight fit in there. The PSU board is only held down with a few screws anyway so i would recommend removing it.

    Underneath of the deck there is a black cover that covers up the rear of the motors, you should remove that before taking the transport out as it might snag on the motors and wires.

    Not completely sure what you mean about motor noise.. The only noise i can think of is the deck automatically taking up potential tape slack after the drawer is closed. Please explain.

    Dont hesitate to ask if you run into problems. Its been awhile since i did this but if its necessary i could take more pictures and post them here.

    Frog79
     

    joliv

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    Hi there!

    No i did not remove the front panel, however you have to take off the front "lid" of the loading drawer to be able to slide the mechanism out of the deck.

    Removal of the power supply unit was done to get the transport out, you might be able to do it without removing it but its a tight fit in there. The PSU board is only held down with a few screws anyway so i would recommend removing it.

    Underneath of the deck there is a black cover that covers up the rear of the motors, you should remove that before taking the transport out as it might snag on the motors and wires.

    Not completely sure what you mean about motor noise.. The only noise i can think of is the deck automatically taking up potential tape slack after the drawer is closed. Please explain.

    Dont hesitate to ask if you run into problems. Its been awhile since i did this but if its necessary i could take more pictures and post them here.

    Frog79
    Thank you for your feedback. Yes, taking out the transformer/power supply should be easy. About noisy motor: I've seen this in the past on 2 Pioneers and fixed by droping a tiny drop of oil on the motor shaft (with a tiny screwdriver for example) and rotate the shaft few times - repeating with 2/3 more drops. Was asking, as another possibility would be some belt forced movement or slippery gear (?) - motors are commonly dry after many years and need that lubrification.
    So - I understood that not taking the front panel out (good to avoid any assembly errors) you got the power/transformer out and slipped the mechanism back direction relative to chassis is that so ?
    Once more thanks.
     

    frog79

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    So - I understood that not taking the front panel out (good to avoid any assembly errors) you got the power/transformer out and slipped the mechanism back direction relative to chassis is that so ?
    Thats correct. As far as i remember i did not disconnect every wire from the transport. As you see from the pictures i placed a book on top of the chassi and rested the transport upside down on that. You might also want to remove the flywheels and oil the capstan bearings as being a horizontal transport i suspect the oil might just flow out of it over time. Remember to remove the oil stop plastic washers on the front side before doing that.

    I dont have excessive motor noise on my deck, however this deck was barely used when i got it. So oiling the motors would probably be a good idea. Dont overdo it though.

    Its not really all that difficult, its just that its a mess of wires, screws and sensors. Take a lot of pictures and note down where every screw goes.

    Frog79
     

    joliv

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    Thats correct. As far as i remember i did not disconnect every wire from the transport. As you see from the pictures i placed a book on top of the chassi and rested the transport upside down on that. You might also want to remove the flywheels and oil the capstan bearings as being a horizontal transport i suspect the oil might just flow out of it over time. Remember to remove the oil stop plastic washers on the front side before doing that.

    I dont have excessive motor noise on my deck, however this deck was barely used when i got it. So oiling the motors would probably be a good idea. Dont overdo it though.

    Its not really all that difficult, its just that its a mess of wires, screws and sensors. Take a lot of pictures and note down where every screw goes.

    Frog79
    Thanks again for the feedback: already took out the power supply board - I suppose from the photos that the cassette tray loader was "in" for the operation. I've received a lot of those "dozens" different made in China belts (through ebay) never used them to check if they are bad or suffciently good - hope I can find equal ones for replacement, otherwise I know where I can get them.
     

    joliv

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    Thats correct. As far as i remember i did not disconnect every wire from the transport. As you see from the pictures i placed a book on top of the chassi and rested the transport upside down on that. You might also want to remove the flywheels and oil the capstan bearings as being a horizontal transport i suspect the oil might just flow out of it over time. Remember to remove the oil stop plastic washers on the front side before doing that.

    I dont have excessive motor noise on my deck, however this deck was barely used when i got it. So oiling the motors would probably be a good idea. Dont overdo it though.

    Its not really all that difficult, its just that its a mess of wires, screws and sensors. Take a lot of pictures and note down where every screw goes.

    Frog79
    OK - now I am at the same step as the picture DSCF8716 (the 6th) - I just saw an hidden screw next to the 4 contact motor - but in doubt how to go to next step in photo 7 - I see there's 2 wire connections from small board to middle motor which I am afraid to broke or force... motor position in photo 7 would also be ideal for lubrification. Enlight me please :)
     

    joliv

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    OK - now I am at the same step as the picture DSCF8716 (the 6th) - I just saw an hidden screw next to the 4 contact motor - but in doubt how to go to next step in photo 7 - I see there's 2 wire connections from small board to middle motor which I am afraid to broke or force... motor position in photo 7 would also be ideal for lubrification. Enlight me please :)
    Ok - got it -
     

    joliv

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    Thanks again for the feedback: already took out the power supply board - I suppose from the photos that the cassette tray loader was "in" for the operation. I've received a lot of those "dozens" different made in China belts (through ebay) never used them to check if they are bad or suffciently good - hope I can find equal ones for replacement, otherwise I know where I can get them.
    Thats correct. As far as i remember i did not disconnect every wire from the transport. As you see from the pictures i placed a book on top of the chassi and rested the transport upside down on that. You might also want to remove the flywheels and oil the capstan bearings as being a horizontal transport i suspect the oil might just flow out of it over time. Remember to remove the oil stop plastic washers on the front side before doing that.

    I dont have excessive motor noise on my deck, however this deck was barely used when i got it. So oiling the motors would probably be a good idea. Dont overdo it though.

    Its not really all that difficult, its just that its a mess of wires, screws and sensors. Take a lot of pictures and note down where every screw goes.

    Frog79
    Hello again and need your advice - received today the capstan belt from an e-bay seller and I'm puzzled - either the old one was not original (which could explain the abnormal W&F or even the noise if the belt was slipping on the capstans) or the new one is not the right one - it's shorter 7.2mm in lenght and 0.4mm in width - see my attached images. Now from your belt image, puting my new one in similar "round" position, the difference doesn't seem so big - I measured about 7.1mm against yours 7.8 (but I would say it's 7.4 taking the initial meter displacement) - so the difference would be about .2 to .3 mm and in fact my new one would be more similar to yours. Have you any record of more precise measure or where you found it? I've written to ebay seller, but all I got was a non delivered due to full inbox (!)
    Any help appreciated, best Jorge
     

    Vedlegg

    frog79

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    The way i measured that belt back in the day is the wrong way of measuring it. I should edit that post, if its even possible to edit a post two years after making it..

    I believe my belt was purchased from Thakker.eu. However i bought so many belts from the over the years i cant remember which exact one it was. Where did you get yours?

    There is a guy from Portugal on Ebay selling belts for this deck, i bought from him before and they have always served me well. Might be worth a shot. Even if he is abit pricey.

    Frog79
     

    joliv

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    The way i measured that belt back in the day is the wrong way of measuring it. I should edit that post, if its even possible to edit a post two years after making it..

    I believe my belt was purchased from Thakker.eu. However i bought so many belts from the over the years i cant remember which exact one it was. Where did you get yours?

    There is a guy from Portugal on Ebay selling belts for this deck, i bought from him before and they have always served me well. Might be worth a shot. Even if he is abit pricey.

    Frog79
    Updating: job finished - not receiveing any answer from ebay seller, decided to try - in fact, it seems correct (though .3mm less in width) - fitted without much stretching around capstans / motor. Now, impressions - W&F improved but not as much I was expecting - stands now between .09% and 0.14% (against 0.17%+ before), speed is optimal (less than .1%) so no adjustment. Motors and capstans lubricated, noise is gone, cleaned as required, some new grease in unloading gear. According to this site https://reflectiveobserver.medium.com/wow-flutter-explained-31cc9495d24 (scroll down to the "Soviet state standard GOST 24863–87", current W&F still classifies this Denon as "First class (a.k.a. “hi-fi”): ±0.12%" - but again, I get values 0.08% on my Technics RS-AZ6 single capstan and measured 3 weeks ago about .004 to .006% on a Sony DirectDrive Double Capstan TC-K790ES. So might be a) belt is still not the correct one b) aged motor or DC servo not working as expected c) ??? the fact that is 25 or more years old and simply pieces are not as good as new.
    Let me know your "ears opinion" I attach a small piece of recording I did today on a Sony "normal" HF without Dolby - hmmmm not allowed FLAC files. If you want to share your e-mail can send it by "WeTransfer".
    About that guy from Portugal (I am Portuguese :) ) - I know it - it's where I always buy, I didn't this time because he was in holidays until Feb14th.
    Cheers
     

    joliv

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    Updating: job finished - not receiveing any answer from ebay seller, decided to try - in fact, it seems correct (though .3mm less in width) - fitted without much stretching around capstans / motor. Now, impressions - W&F improved but not as much I was expecting - stands now between .09% and 0.14% (against 0.17%+ before), speed is optimal (less than .1%) so no adjustment. Motors and capstans lubricated, noise is gone, cleaned as required, some new grease in unloading gear. According to this site https://reflectiveobserver.medium.com/wow-flutter-explained-31cc9495d24 (scroll down to the "Soviet state standard GOST 24863–87", current W&F still classifies this Denon as "First class (a.k.a. “hi-fi”): ±0.12%" - but again, I get values 0.08% on my Technics RS-AZ6 single capstan and measured 3 weeks ago about .004 to .006% on a Sony DirectDrive Double Capstan TC-K790ES. So might be a) belt is still not the correct one b) aged motor or DC servo not working as expected c) ??? the fact that is 25 or more years old and simply pieces are not as good as new.
    Let me know your "ears opinion" I attach a small piece of recording I did today on a Sony "normal" HF without Dolby - hmmmm not allowed FLAC files. If you want to share your e-mail can send it by "WeTransfer".
    About that guy from Portugal (I am Portuguese :) ) - I know it - it's where I always buy, I didn't this time because he was in holidays until Feb14th.
    Cheers
    Here's the link for download - no need for e-mail https://www.swisstransfer.com/d/6bb87d0d-72e3-4355-a511-2a2ed75569e0
     

    frog79

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    That sounds good in my ears!

    Ive stopped doing w/f measurements on tape decks the last few years. Instead i'll just take a recording of accoustic guitar and pianos with long sustained notes from a CD. If i cant hear any problems on playback then there isnt any.. Makes my life a whole lot easier and it takes out the test tone cassette as a variable.

    As a matter of interest, have you experienced any drop in treble after multiple playbacks when recording to type 1 tape on this deck?

    Frog79
     

    joliv

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    That sounds good in my ears!

    Ive stopped doing w/f measurements on tape decks the last few years. Instead i'll just take a recording of accoustic guitar and pianos with long sustained notes from a CD. If i cant hear any problems on playback then there isnt any.. Makes my life a whole lot easier and it takes out the test tone cassette as a variable.

    As a matter of interest, have you experienced any drop in treble after multiple playbacks when recording to type 1 tape on this deck?

    Frog79
    I haven't done yet any (full) recordings on it - planning to do it. I still have 1 brand new Sony HF (my preferred "normal") - and will do a recording - will let you know.
    One thing that I don't like is that the meters are "slower" in responding to music - inputing same source on it and on my Technics RS-AZ6 and Sony MD deck, both show more accurately the dynamics changes compared with the Denon.
     

    joliv

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    Im asking because of this thread which i participated in (jomjom79)
    http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=70765

    Would be interesting to hear your experience with this deck and Type 1.

    Frog79
    Interesting thread... (also subscribe that forum as "joliv") will keep eyes open. What I've tested so far - recorded one of my favorites jazz singers - Karen Souza - Tape Sony HF 90 A Side no Dolby, finishing right now B side with Dolby C. Done first 3 recordings of same "Sway" track - without Dolby, with "B" and then with "C" playing with "BIAS". For this tape, found best result with "C" and Bias 1/2 counterclockwise. Will play it back a few times and see if suffers from that loss of higher freqs. Also did some measurements yesterday and found that speed varies on the end of the tape (W&F as well) - might be the tape - will redo the all thing with a Philips Chrome "CD Extra" and check if same occurs - sending screenshots of the graphics I've ploted from Wfgui. Strangely, from a 3150Hz signal, playback speed only drops to 3150 about 3/4 of tape lenght and then climbs up to 3180. As I changed the belt, etc might need some time until it settles down.
    These are my results - check the screenshots:
    Freq RMS quasi-peak
    AVG 3160.776092 0.105 0.234
    MAX 3186.200 0.219 0.465
    MIN 3148.000 0.042 0.125
    Speed Deviation (%) = (f-fo)/fo x 100 [ tolerance max 2%] F being actual playback center freq (3160) and fo is expected playback frequency (3150)
    Speed Deviation (%) = 0.34
    W&F = &f/f X 100(%)
    where f is the center frequency of the audio being played, &f is the variation of this frequency observed during the playback
    W&F = 0.90

    Listening now 1st run side A - all good until now.
    1644706781530.png

    1644706819832.png

    1644707166490.png

    1644707317646.png
     
    Sist redigert:

    joliv

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    Im asking because of this thread which i participated in (jomjom79)
    http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=70765

    Would be interesting to hear your experience with this deck and Type 1.

    Frog79
    Maybe we can investigate if there was really some kind of "bad batch" of erase heads by serial number ? here's mine 2051513520
    Just finished 1st run of play side A - didn't notice any treble drop - well until now.
     

    joliv

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    Just let it play alone 5 more times on side A (Sony HF type I) - my ears don't notice any loss... Meanwhile I recorded in a brand new Maxell XLII-S a 3150Hz sine using direct connection from my phone. Results from Wfgui are better - tape quality counts :) . W&F still showing some higher > .01 in first 20mns (but with very good occasional lows of 0.04+) and more steadly values after with more frequency of lower values. Speed is also more stable, but with same (less) increase over the final 10 mns of tape. I probably messed up yesterday with some typo error and introduced 3160 as signal instead of 3150 - because today the values are much closer to 3150. Cheers
    Freq RMS quasi-peak
    AVG 3152.1 0.1021 0.219
    MAX 3160.5 0.168 0.353
    MIN 3145.3 0.045 0.119
    1644775258227.png
     

    frog79

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    Mine is 5081520978 so im guessing a later batch than yours (?)

    I will take the deck apart and take some pictures of that erase head once i find the time between work and other duties. Maybe the head itself has some digits printed on the side of it.

    Frog79
     
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